DUST Search - The Rifles - Confirmed Performances

Fizzer XCIV wrote:

Monkey MAC wrote:

bamboo x wrote:

isnt this just a copypaste from features and ideas

shameful

Otherway round, this is the orginal, although almost without exception the Disscusssions and Feedback variant has less conjecture and circumstantial evidence.

But if I didn't put it in both there would have been a serious mistake which was pointed out to me on this thread.
The thing is their are a few of us in GD who prefer to balance weapons with more than just the following arguments.

I used it and only did about average this clearly means it's not OP

I used it and absolutely slaughtered a selection of blueberries probably straight from the Academy, it's clearly OP

I think it FEELS too powerful, this clearly makes it OP

I think it FEELS just fine, obviously this means it's not OP

I've got a mate who only does reasonably with it, so how can it be OP?

I tried it once and liked it more than my current Protostomping fit, it is OP and must be nerfed to hell and back.

and so on and so forth.

This is the thing cruor, echo and every one else who says numbers don't mean squat. This ENTIRE game is built upon numbers. If numbers aren't important why are there so blasted many of them? No of course the game's not played in a vaccum.

But as has been said before. You cannot make an unbiased calculation of weapons balance on 2 people of different skill levels, you can say it's more difficult to hit/aim or whatever but so long as you can get rounds on target it must be assumed that someone somewhere will be able to get even more rounds on target.

You also can't account for Tank type either, since you can tank, either or both, you can't say it's balanced because it can't cut through such and such a tank, yet another weapon that does is suddenly OP, that's biased towards that tank type.

Cover is also a non-factor unless you are calculating regen on a dropsuit. Since in all but 3 (4 if you count the FG) cases, if you don't have line of sight to your opponent, which is required to apply damage, then neither do your opponent.

Reload times are only a factor if you are in an engagement which requires more than 1 magazine, since it's rather biased to balance a weapon assuming it's only ever got half it's mag at the beginning of the engagement.

So no the game is played in a vaccum where we are all standing in a large flat open field, standing still and shooting each other, but if you take a snapshot of an engagement, say the next time a heavy rounds a corner, that frozen moment of time, that's exactly what is happening.

The maths simply doesn't care, it only tells it like it is.

Until you add variables. Which this game has.

The math only goes so far. It helps, alot, I admit. But at some point you do have to make decisions based on ideas more abstract than pure math.

They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank!


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Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3378	Posted - 2014.08.27 09:04:00 - [1] - Quote So I'll start by quoting this statement from Rattati. CCP Rattati wrote: Actually I just gave the CPM a heads up yesterday that the scrambler is outperforming other rifles right now, yet the assault scrambler is one of the worst performers, along with all the GA Assault Rifles, still... So it's obvious that many of the rifles (4 Blaster Variants + 1 Scrambler Variant ~ 50%) aren't working as they should be and at least 1 of them is OVER performing. But the big question is do we bump up the 50% not working well enough or do we bring down the 50% working too well? Currently the AR has 44m Optimal Range and about 450 DPS at PRO level. I'm sure most of you agree that 450 DPS is more than sufficent for a rifle. Because of this I'm going to use the Gallante Assault Rifle as the yard stick, everything else will be in comparison to that rifle. Gallante Assault Rifle: Optimal:44m Effective:72 DPS: 453 TTE: 4.5 Secs (Time to empty magazine) First let's look at the other Rifles and their Variants Burst Combat Rifle: Optimal:61m(+17m) Effective:77(+5m) DPS:594(+141) TTE: 2.7 Secs (3.35 with Min Assault Lvl 5) Assuming fire at full auto, is possible. Assault Combat Rifle: Optimal:50m(+6m) Effective:77(+5m) DPS:420(-33) TTE: 3.4 Secs (4.25 with Min Assault Lvl 5) Scrambler Rifle: Optimal:72m(+28m) Effective:83m(+11m) DPS: 572(+119) TTOH: 2 Seconds (2.5 Seconds with Am Assault Lvl 5) Assault Scrambler Rifle: Optimal:55m(+11m) Effective:83m(+11m) DPS:420(-33) TTE: 6.5 Seconds (Overheat not calculated, from experience 5 seconds) Rail Rifle: Optimal:72m(+28m) Effective:94m(+22m) DPS:397(-56) TTE: 5.5 Seconds Assault Rail Rifle: Optimal:72m(+28m) Effective:94m(+22m) DPS: 400(-53) TTE: 4.2 Seconds As you can see in comparison the ACR and ARR the Assault Rifle is relatively balanced it has the best DPS and largest relative mag size. However the ARR does need a range nerf, my personal suggestion would be about 60m optimal. The ACR can be seen as over performing because it's profile gives an effective 5% damage boost (not calcualated), this needs to be rectified. The AScR we can see is underperforming purely because of it's Shield weighted damage profile, doing anything to this weapon would overpower it. The RR is perfectly balanced by comparison better suited to long term engagements outside the effective range of most of the other weapons, this is fine and balanced. The BCR is too easy to abuse, when fired at full auto it has ridicuolus DPS and range, which in turn with the projectile damage profile ends in devastating results, I suggest a higher forced delay between burst, such that only 4 bursts per second is capable, then a damage rebalance to approximatly 410 DPS The ScR is equally easy to abuse, when fired at 8 shots per second it too has riduicuolus DPS and range, pair this with a larg mag and relatively easy to avoid overheat function and you have weapon that just chews through the enemy. From this it's obvious why the BCR and ScR are overperforming, making the GAR obselete. I will edit this post later to include the other Gallante Variants. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3378	Posted - 2014.08.27 10:25:00 - [2] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Rail rifle needs the range. Caldari suits arent optimized to be anywhere near brawler ranges. They have to thoroughly outrange HMG (and assault HMG) ranges or they are meat. Period. Scram rifle doesnt do too much damage to armor. The damage is similar to the tac AR. Nerfing it would make the weapon utterly worthless vs. Armor suits, which only die to scrams when sitting still or running in straight lines. CR should eat a -20% to shields +20% to armor which frees up the middle damage niche so the GAR and RR can shine as the most balanced killers as they are less specialized. Yet then by that definition you'd be happy with the CR maintaining it's equally devastating damage because it's profile would favours armour? Or is this a case, one set of rules for you one set of rules by everyone else? The ScR at 480 RPM (voluntarily) still outperforms the AR at armour damage, out performs the Rail Rifle at armour damage without profciency, out performs both armour based assault variant weapons without profciency. So I don't know where your getting this info from, but unless your enemy has profciency skills, your not loosing out at all. The ScR and the BCR most indefinitely need a nerf. Both in max ROF and Damage. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3378	Posted - 2014.08.27 11:10:00 - [3] - Quote Gallante Rifle comparisons are now also up! They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3380	Posted - 2014.08.27 19:57:00 - [4] - Quote Mejt0 wrote: Yes, because human will tap R1 12times in 1second. Reality says hi. Turbo controles are the problem. If you need a turbo controller to reach the 8 shots per second, I feel sorry for you, in an attempt to be unbiased the ScR has been calculated at 8 shots per second. The same as the TACAR has. Echo 1991 wrote: You cant just use raw dps values as you arent going to hit every shot every time. Also to calculate dps you have to use both RoF and damage per bullet. Right now the ScR does too much damage it has since it was first put into the game just no one has used it since whenever the CR was introduced. If you wish to calculate accuracy, you take an average accuracy 60% (+ù0.60) and multiple the raw DPS by that value. Attempting to calcualte a different players with different accuracies creates biased results, since every weapin in the game will be UP if it's weilded by a crap shot, vice versa every weapon would be OP if you never missed a single shot. Secondly I did use DMG and ROF. Ryme Intresica wrote: There is no mystery about this, 572 DPS for the ScR is a miscalculation. The current figure for proto ScR is 841 DPS (705.88/6071.5), while the proto Tac AR only manages 607 DPS (500/6072.8). So the ScR performs so much better because it has much higher range AND much higher DPS. This however requires a turbo controller, this is simply arguement for the a harsher ROF cap to combat such abuse, however you will notice this is calcualted at 8 shots a second, a supposedly more reasonable ROF for ScR users. Tech de ra wrote: there is a 0.06s pause between each burst, so you'll find that the dps is 424, not 594 Indeed my apologies, with this in mind I suggest a simple 1 dmg per shot nerf is all that is neccesary, assuming of course the damage profile is balanced. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3382	Posted - 2014.08.27 23:19:00 - [5] - Quote bamboo x wrote: isnt this just a copypaste from features and ideas shameful Otherway round, this is the orginal, although almost without exception the Disscusssions and Feedback variant has less conjecture and circumstantial evidence. But if I didn't put it in both there would have been a serious mistake which was pointed out to me on this thread. The thing is their are a few of us in GD who prefer to balance weapons with more than just the following arguments. I used it and only did about average this clearly means it's not OP I used it and absolutely slaughtered a selection of blueberries probably straight from the Academy, it's clearly OP I think it FEELS too powerful, this clearly makes it OP I think it FEELS just fine, obviously this means it's not OP I've got a mate who only does reasonably with it, so how can it be OP? I tried it once and liked it more than my current Protostomping fit, it is OP and must be nerfed to hell and back. and so on and so forth. This is the thing cruor, echo and every one else who says numbers don't mean squat. This ENTIRE game is built upon numbers. If numbers aren't important why are there so blasted many of them? No of course the game's not played in a vaccum. But as has been said before. You cannot make an unbiased calculation of weapons balance on 2 people of different skill levels, you can say it's more difficult to hit/aim or whatever but so long as you can get rounds on target it must be assumed that someone somewhere will be able to get even more rounds on target. You also can't account for Tank type either, since you can tank, either or both, you can't say it's balanced because it can't cut through such and such a tank, yet another weapon that does is suddenly OP, that's biased towards that tank type. Cover is also a non-factor unless you are calculating regen on a dropsuit. Since in all but 3 (4 if you count the FG) cases, if you don't have line of sight to your opponent, which is required to apply damage, then neither do your opponent. Reload times are only a factor if you are in an engagement which requires more than 1 magazine, since it's rather biased to balance a weapon assuming it's only ever got half it's mag at the beginning of the engagement. So no the game is played in a vaccum where we are all standing in a large flat open field, standing still and shooting each other, but if you take a snapshot of an engagement, say the next time a heavy rounds a corner, that frozen moment of time, that's exactly what is happening. The maths simply doesn't care, it only tells it like it is. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3385	Posted - 2014.08.28 10:42:00 - [6] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: bamboo x wrote: isnt this just a copypaste from features and ideas shameful Otherway round, this is the orginal, although almost without exception the Disscusssions and Feedback variant has less conjecture and circumstantial evidence. But if I didn't put it in both there would have been a serious mistake which was pointed out to me on this thread. The thing is their are a few of us in GD who prefer to balance weapons with more than just the following arguments. I used it and only did about average this clearly means it's not OP I used it and absolutely slaughtered a selection of blueberries probably straight from the Academy, it's clearly OP I think it FEELS too powerful, this clearly makes it OP I think it FEELS just fine, obviously this means it's not OP I've got a mate who only does reasonably with it, so how can it be OP? I tried it once and liked it more than my current Protostomping fit, it is OP and must be nerfed to hell and back. and so on and so forth. This is the thing cruor, echo and every one else who says numbers don't mean squat. This ENTIRE game is built upon numbers. If numbers aren't important why are there so blasted many of them? No of course the game's not played in a vaccum. But as has been said before. You cannot make an unbiased calculation of weapons balance on 2 people of different skill levels, you can say it's more difficult to hit/aim or whatever but so long as you can get rounds on target it must be assumed that someone somewhere will be able to get even more rounds on target. You also can't account for Tank type either, since you can tank, either or both, you can't say it's balanced because it can't cut through such and such a tank, yet another weapon that does is suddenly OP, that's biased towards that tank type. Cover is also a non-factor unless you are calculating regen on a dropsuit. Since in all but 3 (4 if you count the FG) cases, if you don't have line of sight to your opponent, which is required to apply damage, then neither do your opponent. Reload times are only a factor if you are in an engagement which requires more than 1 magazine, since it's rather biased to balance a weapon assuming it's only ever got half it's mag at the beginning of the engagement. So no the game is played in a vaccum where we are all standing in a large flat open field, standing still and shooting each other, but if you take a snapshot of an engagement, say the next time a heavy rounds a corner, that frozen moment of time, that's exactly what is happening. The maths simply doesn't care, it only tells it like it is. Until you add variables. Which this game has. The math only goes so far. It helps, alot, I admit. But at some point you do have to make decisions based on ideas more abstract than pure math. Of course, you after all using a simplfied model, but the things you can't use the maths for are things where there is no maths in the first place. Such a map layouts, cover, behaviour under cloaking etc. But when it comes to the weapons, modules, dropsuits, vehicles, equipment, etc it's all about the maths, because their entore function is born from maths. Each and every module and weapon is designed to manipulate numbers using a predetermined formula, talkking about the feel of such items has no beaeing on it's use. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3385	Posted - 2014.08.28 11:43:00 - [7] - Quote TOOMANY NAMES ALREADYTAKEn wrote: What about the laser rifle? Is not considered one of the 4 racial assault rifles, it is (at least to me) in the LMG category. Futhermore calculating DPS for this weapon is not particularly easy. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3385	Posted - 2014.08.28 13:43:00 - [8] - Quote Ryme Intrinseca wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: Ryme Intresica wrote: There is no mystery about this, 572 DPS for the ScR is a miscalculation. The current figure for proto ScR is 841 DPS (705.88/6071.5), while the proto Tac AR only manages 607 DPS (500/6072.8). So the ScR performs so much better because it has much higher range AND much higher DPS. This however requires a turbo controller, this is simply arguement for the a harsher ROF cap to combat such abuse, however you will notice this is calcualted at 8 shots a second, a supposedly more reasonable ROF for ScR users. If you wanted to argue for a harsher RoF cap you should FOREGROUND the fact that at present a turbo ScR utterly dominates all other rifles. Instead you make out like Tac AR and ScR have similar DPS, which they definitely do not! So this whole thread reads like an effort at disinformation, to try to keep the ScR an I-win button by obscuring the indisputable facts about the massive DPS and range advantage it has. Maybe you don't mean to do that, maybe you don't use a turbo ScR, but that is how it reads. Maybe you should reread then, I am saying that even at 8 shots a second the ScR has more than a reasonable amount of DPS for its range, even at human levels of firing. The ScR is a front loaded weapon, and that means so long as it is meant to be a general purpose rifle, it will in effect be overpowered. The idea was to be fair on those who do not abuse the weapon with turbos etc and to show that even then it is still too powerful. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3390	Posted - 2014.09.01 08:55:00 - [9] - Quote Echo 1991 wrote: All that needs to be done is one of 2 things or both: 1. lower Damage per shot by x amount 2. lower RoF by x amount. And if its possible change the heat mechanic to per shot. The weapon has far too many strong points and its only weak point is an overheat mechanic that is easily manageable. It doesnt need the nerf hammer but something needs to be done. Personally I think it needs a combination of both. Overheat per shot would require a new patch. Although I would not be opposed to rdducing heat build up slightly, in order to make up for the lower DPS. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3390	Posted - 2014.09.01 08:57:00 - [10] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Monkey MAC wrote: TOOMANY NAMES ALREADYTAKEn wrote: What about the laser rifle? Is not considered one of the 4 racial assault rifles, it is (at least to me) in the LMG category. Futhermore calculating DPS for this weapon is not particularly easy. Sure you can. (EDIT: Gotta give credit to Musta Tornius/Bamm Havoc for doing the actual hard work for those calculations) Never said you couldn't just said it wasn't worth the effort, not for this thread anyway. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3